A Conditioning Experiment ...

[introclaus]

You know how you can condition yourself to accept, or perhaps even enjoy, certain things ... like spicy food. If you begin eating it often enough, you no longer think of it as spicy, right?

Well, I decided I was going to try the same with music, since everyone kept raving about how amazing Sleep Token was, so I have listened to "Take Me Back to Eden" probably 30 times or so, and with the same reaction for the first 15 times ("this is boring", "how can anyone enjoy this", "horrible", "overrated"), to suddenly find myself feeling it wasn't too bad for the next 10 times or so ("hmmm that's interesting", "okay, I can see how this could appeal to someone", "not my cup of tea, but I respect it"), and then now actually really liking it. At this point in time I'm familiar with all the songs on the album, and I would be lying if I didn't admit that I am singing along with the lyrics and bopping my head up and down rhythmically along with the music.

Now, with all that said, is this how music should be? That you'll have to force yourself to listen to it so many times that you like it? Shouldn't good music be immediate?

And truth be told, do I even really like it, or has it just become so familiar to me that I mistake that for "like"?

Perhaps I confused myself by doing this experiment? Or perhaps I'm slowly turning into one of those thousands of Sleep Token fans that are so obnoxious all across the internet...

[Sir Exar Kun]

I have no doubt this can work...... But in a world where I have so much music to choose from that I love, and can hardly keep up with my new release list, I just don't have the time to try to repeatedly listen to something over and over to "force" myself to appreciate it.

It's funny that you post this now; just yesterday I was on a page dedicated to fantasy / sci-fi, discussing a ~1200 page tome by Alan Moore that (in my oh so humble opinion) was an utter slogfest, and was a pure struggle to get through. I read the entire thing on the off chance something picked up towards the end (spoiler alert: it did NOT). A couple other folks said that on their first read of it, they felt the same but then when they went back a second or third time, it suddenly clicked for them.

Same feeling applies here: I have a massive stack of to-be-read books that I am super excited to tackle, and there are dozens and dozens more I'd love to order, so why on earth would I "force" myself to re-read something that I did not enjoy, just for some sense of validation from others?

Nope.

Not gonna do it.

That all being said, back to the original topic, never heard a single Sleep Token song, no clue what the hype is all about, and happy to stay safely oblivious. I'm sure at some point I'll hear something I like, and maybe kick myself for ignoring it for so long.....

[LarryD]

I agree with this theory - and yes I'm sure it could work for lots of music you wouldn't normally listen to ..... I'm in the Sir Exar camp .... there is too much to listen to, and too much music to spend "trying" to like something ...... I'm an "instant gratification" guy ..... I put the music on, hit Play, and see what happens ......sure, the way I do it, I miss out on lots of music that I might otherwise enjoy. But music is a "feel" to me .... it's not a "listen" at first.... I feel what is happening, I always listen to the singer, and if he / she doesn't meet my strict standards of listening, it's gone .....

That said - I have subscribed to this theory in some way or form ..... meaning, someone says " you have to hear this " or " you will love this " and I do it and don't like it...... or I don't do it at all. The debate is on. Usually it's the singer I don't care for in most situations.

Off the top of my head - there is one band that I really had to sink my head and time into ..... it could be the one band I spent way too much time on to like, and sure, the payoff was good, but it was a long, uphill climb. That band was Pain of Salvation. The guy responsible for this, is Ken Golden. He and I spent tons of time on the phone over the years talking about this band. I wanted to like them, but I couldn't. So over the years, I bought every PoS disc that came out, hoping to be like everyone else and like them. I could not. After so long, I think Ken gave up. But then one year, I was working for him at Nearfest, and he called me over to his side of the room, and told me to watch a concert that he had playing on a TV. It was Pain of Salvation / BE live .... I was hooked. I loved it. I bought BE - and moved backward in the catalog and ended up loving everything except Entropia. It was a long, time consuming thing .... I vowed never to do that again, and that is the exception for me, but instant gratification is where it is at for me ..... I will not "train" myself to like something .... I do or I don't.

I have not heard a note of Sleep Token - nor do I know what they are about - and I'm ok with that.

[Sir Exar Kun]

Off the top of my head - there is one band that I really had to sink my head and time into ..... it could be the one band I spent way too much time on to like, and sure, the payoff was good, but it was a long, uphill climb. That band was Pain of Salvation. The guy responsible for this, is Ken Golden. He and I spent tons of time on the phone over the years talking about this band. I wanted to like them, but I couldn't. So over the years, I bought every PoS disc that came out, hoping to be like everyone else and like them. I could not. After so long, I think Ken gave up. But then one year, I was working for him at Nearfest, and he called me over to his side of the room, and told me to watch a concert that he had playing on a TV. It was Pain of Salvation / BE live .... I was hooked. I loved it. I bought BE - and moved backward in the catalog and ended up loving everything except Entropia. It was a long, time consuming thing .... I vowed never to do that again, and that is the exception for me, but instant gratification is where it is at for me ..... I will not "train" myself to like something .... I do or I don't.

What surprises me most about this story is that it was BE of all things that hooked you??? Had you heard TPE and Remedy Lane by that point, and they didn't do it?

For me, first exposure was "One Hour" and it was a very challenging listen. It reminded me of hearing Saviour Machine for the first time, recognizing there was a TON going on and it was going to require numerous listens to begin to absorb everything. The difference to Claus's comment for me was that even at the outset there were hooks that caught me immediately, and even though it took many listens to really "get it" it was never a case of "well, I SHOULD like this so I'll keep trying"......

When TPE came out though..... Love at first sight. Just an instant classic I could not get enough of. Ditto for Remedy Lane, which at first I was not quite as enamored with as TPE but over the years has definitely surpassed it for me, and MIGHT just be my favorite album of all time. (If not #1, it's right there!)

Be, however, was a slog. I have not spun it in many years, and need to try it again, but it was a major turnoff for me out of the gate. One of those albums where the concept overwhelms the art, and the songwriting gets lost in the "story", so it just surprises me that this of all things is what fully pulled you in.

[LarryD]

What surprises me most about this story is that it was BE of all things that hooked you??? Had you heard TPE and Remedy Lane by that point, and they didn't do it?

***Ken first tried to get me into Entropia .... couldn't do it. I bought each disc that came out and tried to get into it. Thus the conditioning theory. However, One Hour was just so cold and too much going on...... Then I tried TPE and RL - both just way too busy for me, although knowing Daniel was brilliant, so it kept me going ....
I didn't care for RL too much, but when I saw the BE show, it was much more melodic, and you know I'm a chump for DVD concerts .... plus the fact that BE is a concept ......sold !!!!!!

For me, first exposure was "One Hour" and it was a very challenging listen. It reminded me of hearing Saviour Machine for the first time, recognizing there was a TON going on and it was going to require numerous listens to begin to absorb everything. The difference to Claus's comment for me was that even at the outset there were hooks that caught me immediately, and even though it took many listens to really "get it" it was never a case of "well, I SHOULD like this so I'll keep trying"......

When TPE came out though..... Love at first sight. Just an instant classic I could not get enough of. Ditto for Remedy Lane, which at first I was not quite as enamored with as TPE but over the years has definitely surpassed it for me, and MIGHT just be my favorite album of all time. (If not #1, it's right there!)

Be, however, was a slog. I have not spun it in many years, and need to try it again, but it was a major turnoff for me out of the gate. One of those albums where the concept overwhelms the art, and the songwriting gets lost in the "story", so it just surprises me that this of all things is what fully pulled you in.

****TPE is my favorite PoS disc ....but BE grounded me so I could at least enjoy their music and try to figure out what this band was all about and why I didn't like them as much as everyone else.....

It wasn't until PoS played the whole Remedy Lane that brought me back to that disc - and can now enjoy it fully except for one or two songs ......The Perfect Element, is, well just perfect in all of it's performance.....there is just something magical about that disc. I still love BE - other than the gospel song, which I have come to at least like, the rest of it is superb. What I love is that there are more keyboards, melodies, and a better production than all of the other discs ...... however, in a Prog Metal world, TPE is without a doubt one of the best .......so BE was actually just a way for me to settle down with the band and dive back in with a new outlook.

[introclaus]

I have no doubt this can work...... But in a world where I have so much music to choose from that I love, and can hardly keep up with my new release list, I just don't have the time to try to repeatedly listen to something over and over to "force" myself to appreciate it.

I hear you - I also wouldn't spend that much time on it, but people who I really respect and usually are very much in agreement with kept telling me how fantastic it was, and I then decided to see if I could condition myself to enjoying it. And it worked

It's funny that you post this now; just yesterday I was on a page dedicated to fantasy / sci-fi, discussing a ~1200 page tome by Alan Moore that (in my oh so humble opinion) was an utter slogfest, and was a pure struggle to get through. I read the entire thing on the off chance something picked up towards the end (spoiler alert: it did NOT). A couple other folks said that on their first read of it, they felt the same but then when they went back a second or third time, it suddenly clicked for them.

Same feeling applies here: I have a massive stack of to-be-read books that I am super excited to tackle, and there are dozens and dozens more I'd love to order, so why on earth would I "force" myself to re-read something that I did not enjoy, just for some sense of validation from others?

Nope.

Not gonna do it.

Yeah that makes sense. I do think there's "less of an effort" on my part, as I listen to music all the time, and with Sleep Token I just put it on repeat while working. Dedicating the time to read a 1,200 page book is very different.

That all being said, back to the original topic, never heard a single Sleep Token song, no clue what the hype is all about, and happy to stay safely oblivious. I'm sure at some point I'll hear something I like, and maybe kick myself for ignoring it for so long.....

Hah, yeah that might be true - or you might hate it like I did at first.

[introclaus]

I agree with this theory - and yes I'm sure it could work for lots of music you wouldn't normally listen to ..... I'm in the Sir Exar camp .... there is too much to listen to, and too much music to spend "trying" to like something ...... I'm an "instant gratification" guy ..... I put the music on, hit Play, and see what happens ......sure, the way I do it, I miss out on lots of music that I might otherwise enjoy. But music is a "feel" to me .... it's not a "listen" at first.... I feel what is happening, I always listen to the singer, and if he / she doesn't meet my strict standards of listening, it's gone .....
That said - I have subscribed to this theory in some way or form ..... meaning, someone says " you have to hear this " or " you will love this " and I do it and don't like it...... or I don't do it at all. The debate is on. Usually it's the singer I don't care for in most situations.

Yup, I also don't want to spend time trying to like something under normal circumstances. Like I said, this became an experiment and that made it "fun to try"...

Off the top of my head - there is one band that I really had to sink my head and time into ..... it could be the one band I spent way too much time on to like, and sure, the payoff was good, but it was a long, uphill climb. That band was Pain of Salvation. The guy responsible for this, is Ken Golden. He and I spent tons of time on the phone over the years talking about this band. I wanted to like them, but I couldn't. So over the years, I bought every PoS disc that came out, hoping to be like everyone else and like them. I could not. After so long, I think Ken gave up. But then one year, I was working for him at Nearfest, and he called me over to his side of the room, and told me to watch a concert that he had playing on a TV. It was Pain of Salvation / BE live .... I was hooked. I loved it. I bought BE - and moved backward in the catalog and ended up loving everything except Entropia. It was a long, time consuming thing .... I vowed never to do that again, and that is the exception for me, but instant gratification is where it is at for me ..... I will not "train" myself to like something .... I do or I don't.

Dude, the first bunch of PoS were all instant with me. "Be" is actually the only one that it took me years and years to get into. There's only one of their albums I dislike ("In the passing light of day").

I have not heard a note of Sleep Token - nor do I know what they are about - and I'm ok with that.

Yeah, you won't like it.

[LASERCD]

So what did we learn from this?

1. Claus is subject to a musical form of The Stockholm Syndrome
2. Larry is a freak.

[LarryD]

So what did we learn from this?

1. Claus is subject to a musical form of The Stockholm Syndrome
2. Larry is a freak.

****You're killing me .......

[introclaus]

So what did we learn from this?

1. Claus is subject to a musical form of The Stockholm Syndrome
2. Larry is a freak.

I'm glad this got you out of hiding

[Mardoch]

I file these in two camps. There are things that I definitely don't like that I won't go back to, and there are things that are compelling, but not instantaneous.

If I find something compelling, even if I'm not sure why, I'll come back over time and see if the vibe turns into a concrete appreciation or sours. I didn't love Protest the Hero right away, because Roddy is on the edge of vocalists I'm ok with, but the rest of the package was so compelling I kept trying. This is true of harsh vocals for me, too, actually, but eventually Soilwork just really clicked and now I'm something of a connoisseur.

But the feeling of "there's something here for me" has to be super strong, because like Exar said, there's just sooo much out there that's more likely to hit me immediately. As for Sleep Token? Well, the sleep part is damned sure apropos to me, and nothing in there pulls me to keep trying. Different strokes, as always.