Kamelot - The Awakening

[introclaus]

Camp A: More of the same - I'm so tired of this - the band has really lost me - I'd rather listen to Tommy in 7W - boring
Camp B: No one does this style better than Kamelot, even if its 100% exactly what I expected - love it

Where do you belong? For the record, I'm camp B all the way!

Album trailer 1: https://youtu.be/gWzkq8Zx-ZE
Album trailer 2: https://youtu.be/FOgnrYGwyYE
Single 1 - One More Flag in the Ground: https://youtu.be/sLp1wSGC7Us
Single 2 - Opera of the Night: https://youtu.be/hqRFWCbQ9Lk
Single 3 - Eventide: https://youtu.be/8T0A_czEqJ0
The Great Divide: https://youtu.be/-DHXkNSxhfc (Jani Liimatainen apparently has a co-writing credit on this one)
Bloodmoon: https://youtu.be/qLNyE8kuy7s
Nightsky: https://youtu.be/BWVRkq75Pgo
Midsummer's Eve: https://youtu.be/HZc5zo7_j9c
The Looking Glass: https://youtu.be/MrBNLYCVFS8
My Pantheon: https://youtu.be/DpHQRgPL7h0
Willow: https://youtu.be/yFaj9_dU_qY

[Random Axe]

I switched camps a couple of years ago when I finally watched I Am the Empire. That completely turned me around. I couldn't accept Roy not being there and how they tried to turn Tommy into him.

Now, to me I can hear the distinctions. They share a sense of drama but are quite different in other facets.

I dont know how to categorize their style or subgenre or if that's even necessary. They went from fantasy themes to mild gothic to dystopian. I just know I adore them and will always, moving forward, be a fan.

[Hearing Aid Man]

I'd guess I'm in camp B. The 1st 2 releases with Tommy floored me. However, the shadow theory reminded of Seventh Wonder's the Testament. I enjoy the album immensely, but it didn't blow my mind like the 2 before it. Hopefully, the new one meets my high expectations.

[prog_powermetal99]

Camp A: More of the same - I'm so tired of this - the band has really lost me - I'd rather listen to Tommy in 7W - boring
Camp B: No one does this style better than Kamelot, even if its 100% exactly what I expected - love it

Where do you belong? For the record, I'm camp B all the way!

Album trailer 1: https://youtu.be/gWzkq8Zx-ZE
Album trailer 2: https://youtu.be/FOgnrYGwyYE
Single 1 - One More Flag in the Ground: https://youtu.be/sLp1wSGC7Us
Single 2 - Opera of the Night: https://youtu.be/hqRFWCbQ9Lk
Single 3 - Eventide: https://youtu.be/8T0A_czEqJ0
The Great Divide: https://youtu.be/-DHXkNSxhfc (Jani Liimatainen apparently has a co-writing credit on this one)
Bloodmoon: https://youtu.be/qLNyE8kuy7s
Nightsky: https://youtu.be/BWVRkq75Pgo
Midsummer's Eve: https://youtu.be/HZc5zo7_j9c
The Looking Glass: https://youtu.be/MrBNLYCVFS8
My Pantheon: https://youtu.be/DpHQRgPL7h0
Willow: https://youtu.be/yFaj9_dU_qY

This is the best CD from Kamelot from from the Tommy era.... "The Great Divine" has one of the catchiest choruses I've ever heard. Could not get that chorus out of my head. Besides that, all the haters can't say that every song sounds the same or is nothing but double base like they have said about other previous releases. True there are some double bass signature Kamelot songs, but there are also mid paced songs and probably one of the most beautiful ballads that I've ever heard Tommy sing.....No wonder this cd is getting so many great reviews..... Don't get me wrong, it still has that Kamelot sound, so if you don't like that, then you won't like this CD, but due to the variety, I think this is the best Tommy era Kamelot CD. They really let Tommy go nuts on this one!

[introclaus]

This is the best CD from Kamelot from from the Tommy era.... "The Great Divine" has one of the catchiest choruses I've ever heard. Could not get that chorus out of my head. Besides that, all the haters can't say that every song sounds the same or is nothing but double base like they have said about other previous releases. True there are some double bass signature Kamelot songs, but there are also mid paced songs and probably one of the most beautiful ballads that I've ever heard Tommy sing.....No wonder this cd is getting so many great reviews..... Don't get me wrong, it still has that Kamelot sound, so if you don't like that, then you won't like this CD, but due to the variety, I think this is the best Tommy era Kamelot CD. They really let Tommy go nuts on this one!

Agreed 110%.
Tommy is amazing on "Midsummer's Eve" and "Willow".
Also, the final song "My Pantheon" has a chorus melody that's completely unexpected for Kamelot - doesn't sound like anything they've done before.
Yup, there are plenty of "Typical Kamelot songs", such as "Nightsky", "Eventide", or "Opera of the Night", but even those are just a notch up from the last album(s).

Not sure yet if it's the best of the Tommy-era albums, but it's definitely awesome.

PS: waiting on Larry to come in and state that he has given up on the band and that it just no longer is for him )))

[LarryD]

Originally I was going to automatically place myself in the Camp A group without having heard a note ........ I told myself that it wasn't that I didn't care for Tommy singing in the band as if Khan won't do it, who can do it the best ? Well, let's face it - Tommy can.

That said - I'm just tired of that particular style ...... it's not a Kamlot thing, just a style thing ...... however, based on the fact that the disc is getting raved about, and you were so generous to post those videos along with your thoughts, I want to go through them all and then post my thoughts........ I love being surprised.

For the record, I've been plunging myself into Ice Age, Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic, etc ...... big time. So that's where my head is at right now, and has been for some time..... that should give a good idea of the style of music I'm most interested in ........

[prog_powermetal99]

Originally I was going to automatically place myself in the Camp B group without having heard a note ........ I told myself that it wasn't that I didn't care for Tommy singing in the band as if Khan won't do it, who can do it the best ? Well, let's face it - Tommy can.

That said - I'm just tired of that particular style ...... it's not a Kamlot thing, just a style thing ...... however, based on the fact that the disc is getting raved about, and you were so generous to post those videos along with your thoughts, I want to go through them all and then post my thoughts........ I love being surprised.

For the record, I've been plunging myself into Ice Age, Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic, etc ...... big time. So that's where my head is at right now, and has been for some time..... that should give a good idea of the style of music I'm most interested in ........

I hear ya Larry. I think tastes evolve either one direction or the other as we get older. Some people's tastes grown more softer and more into rock music as they get older and others musical tastes change genres completely. My taste has been gravitating more towards power/melodic and symphonic metal as I'm getting older and more away from prog metal......I've never been a fan of prog rock, so that part is the same.....

I think these days I get more bored listening to lite prog metal, especially really longs songs....

I pretty much stopped listening to Dream Theater or similar bands to them these days.....
As I'm getting older, I just prefer more hard hitting metal that's filled with strong hooks, amazing vocals and memorable choruses. That's pretty much where I'm at these days......... But top tier amazing vocals and great hooks are a #1 priority for me. If a band doesn't have them, I don't even want to hear them..........

[introclaus]

I think tastes evolve either one direction or the other as we get older. Some people's tastes grown more softer and more into rock music as they get older and others musical tastes change genres completely. My taste has been gravitating more towards power/melodic and symphonic metal as I'm getting older and more away from prog metal......I've never been a fan of prog rock, so that part is the same.....

I don’t get that at all … I’ve always been listening to anything, as long as I think it’s good. Whether it’s non-metal stuff (huge fan of Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Irish/Scottish folk, pop music, prog rock, classic rock, whatever …) and all genres of metal (power, hard rock, hair, classic metal, prog, death, black, doom, goth, metalcore…). For me it’s about quality, and as long as I can find that I could not care about what genre it is. My taste hasn’t gone softer or heavier over the years.

[introclaus]

Originally I was going to automatically place myself in the Camp B group without having heard a note ........ I told myself that it wasn't that I didn't care for Tommy singing in the band as if Khan won't do it, who can do it the best ? Well, let's face it - Tommy can.

That said - I'm just tired of that particular style ...... it's not a Kamlot thing, just a style thing ...... however, based on the fact that the disc is getting raved about, and you were so generous to post those videos along with your thoughts, I want to go through them all and then post my thoughts........ I love being surprised.

For the record, I've been plunging myself into Ice Age, Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic, etc ...... big time. So that's where my head is at right now, and has been for some time..... that should give a good idea of the style of music I'm most interested in ........

Except for the sentence about you being willing to go through them all and post your thought, I could have written your post before you even did it lol

Looking forward to your comments on the actual songs.

[prog_powermetal99]

I think tastes evolve either one direction or the other as we get older. Some people's tastes grown more softer and more into rock music as they get older and others musical tastes change genres completely. My taste has been gravitating more towards power/melodic and symphonic metal as I'm getting older and more away from prog metal......I've never been a fan of prog rock, so that part is the same.....

I don’t get that at all … I’ve always been listening to anything, as long as I think it’s good. Whether it’s non-metal stuff (huge fan of Tori Amos, Kate Bush, Irish/Scottish folk, pop music, prog rock, classic rock, whatever …) and all genres of metal (power, hard rock, hair, classic metal, prog, death, black, doom, goth, metalcore…). For me it’s about quality, and as long as I can find that I could not care about what genre it is. My taste hasn’t gone softer or heavier over the years.

Yea I'm kind of basing this off of most of my old metal friends that really aren't into hard metal like they use to be in when they were younger, so only like 25 or 30 people that I talk to all of the time, so not a large sample size. the only time I make an exception to amazing vocals and hooks is when I'm in the gym. When I'm in the gym I typically listen to Death Core like Slaughter to Prevail(one of the most amazing metal drummers in the world by the way), but I would never go near death core 10 or 20 years ago LOL. But again that's only for the gym for the insane energy burst that it provides....

[LarryD]

I checked out every single clip that Claus posted up above ....... and afterwards, I'm still in Camp A. I'm not going to sit here and type " same old shit " and call it a day..... I realize that it is quality material. How can it not be with music like that and Tommy once again singing his ass off (Willow was awesome). Tommy does once again channel Sir Khan to the max, and that should be a good thing for most. The music is also quality Kamelot music = as always.

The bottom line is that I just don't get excited about this type of music anymore ........ with well over 2500 CDs, I don't find myself hitting up the Prog Metal section much anymore, instead heading over to the next cabinet and grabbing me some Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic and that style ........ CLaus brought up the fact that bands like DReam Theater, Vanden Plas, are also just re-creating what we are used to, and I am starting to feel the same about those bands as well. It is somewhat pushing it to think that any band can create the same excitement that they did for us 25-30 years ago ..... aside from the serious fan of certain bands, it's just not feasible to expect the same feeling they gave us so long ago, and continue to do so .....

This particular formula of Kamelot works incredibly well ..... but with 17 Kamelot discs in my cabinet, I do prefer to grab onto a Khan driven disc truth be told. Those are the days when my excitement peaked for this band ..... time and age have driven me from this style, but I hardly reach for anything Tommy driven from them, and I'd first grab onto a Kingcrow disc before that. Tastes change - and I'm having a great time getting into bands like Transatlantic, when in the past I thought that they weren't heavy enough, and now I'm finding that the heaviness is just the weight I want it to be at ......

So there you have it ..... right now, Ice Age is kicking my ass and that is the particular style I'm into right now.

[prog_powermetal99]

I checked out every single clip that Claus posted up above ....... and afterwards, I'm still in Camp B. I'm going to sit here and type " same old shit " and call it a day..... I realize that it is quality material. How can it not be with music like that and Tommy once again singing his ass off (Willow was awesome). Tommy does once again channel Sir Khan to the max, and that should be a good thing for most. The music is also quality Kamelot music = as always.

The bottom line is that I just don't get excited about this type of music anymore ........ with well over 2500 CDs, I don't find myself hitting up the Prog Metal section much anymore, instead heading over to the next cabinet and grabbing me some Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic and that style ........ CLaus brought up the fact that bands like DReam Theater, Vanden Plas, are also just re-creating what we are used to, and I am starting to feel the same about those bands as well. It is somewhat pushing it to think that any band can create the same excitement that they did for us 25-30 years ago ..... aside from the serious fan of certain bands, it's just not feasible to expect the same feeling they gave us so long ago, and continue to do so .....

This particular formula of Kamelot works incredibly well ..... but with 17 Kamelot discs in my cabinet, I do prefer to grab onto a Khan driven disc truth be told. Those are the days when my excitement peaked for this band ..... time and age have driven me from this style, but I hardly reach for anything Tommy driven from them, and I'd first grab onto a Kingcrow disc before that. Tastes change - and I'm having a great time getting into bands like Transatlantic, when in the past I thought that they weren't heavy enough, and now I'm finding that the heaviness is just the weight I want it to be at ......

So there you have it ..... right now, Ice Age is kicking my ass and that is the particular style I'm into right now.

Nothing wrong with tastes changing. Like I said in a previous post, my tastes have actually got heavier as I've grown older, go figure? LOL.
Regarding Kamelot, I'm still in the "Tommy can sing from the phonebook and I'd still buy it" camp
One of the best metal vocalists in the world, period! .................

[Mardoch]

Camp A: More of the same - I'm so tired of this - the band has really lost me - I'd rather listen to Tommy in 7W - boring
Camp B: No one does this style better than Kamelot, even if its 100% exactly what I expected - love it

Where do you belong? For the record, I'm camp B all the way!

Both camps at the same time, tbh. There's no band that does what they do as well as they do it, but I've long since shifted away from focusing on what they do and I'd rather hear Tommy doing wacky prog shit (but I do love the man being able to actually pay the bills with his voice).

[prog_powermetal99]

A bit off topic, but I meant to also say, my girlfriend and I went to go see this band in Roseville CA a couple of weeks go called Nemophila. They are an all-girl Japanese metal band and they were phenomenal!! amazing musicians and just a fun band. Not alot of people there, but they brought down the house and everyone was impressed...........

[Sir Exar Kun]

OK, in all the posts above we're missing a link to the single best song on the album!!!! Through 85% of the disc I was thinking.... Sure, yes, it's Kamelot. No surprises, but still loving it. EXACTLY what I expected.

Then THIS track came along....

How I wish there was more like this on here!

Still distinctly Kamelot, but taken up a notch or two.

New Babylon!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ-g_cxZMKY

[prog_powermetal99]

OK, in all the posts above we're missing a link to the single best song on the album!!!! Through 85% of the disc I was thinking.... Sure, yes, it's Kamelot. No surprises, but still loving it. EXACTLY what I expected.

Then THIS track came along....

How I wish there was more like this on here!

Still distinctly Kamelot, but taken up a notch or two.

New Babylon!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ-g_cxZMKY

Great Track! I still love "The Great Divine" the most. Yea it has that pure Kamelot sound, BUT That song is absolute Fire with one of the catchiest choruses I've ever heard in my life.....
What I love about this album is the incredibly depth of the lyrics. Tommy said that this album really centers around the internal struggles of Mental Illness and learning how to overcome it and persevere. "One more flag in the ground" is also one of the most lyrically uplifting songs I've ever heard.

On my 10th playthrough and I'm also starting to notice some Seventh Wonder type vocal nuances that I didn't quite catch before.

I think that's what I love about bands like this. We live in a very dark and fucked up world right now, and we need bands like this that bring a very positive message filled with hope and positivity to the world....Very few bands know how to do that.

It's no wonder this album is getting an average 5 star rating from all of the online reviewers.................

[introclaus]

OK, in all the posts above we're missing a link to the single best song on the album!!!! Through 85% of the disc I was thinking.... Sure, yes, it's Kamelot. No surprises, but still loving it. EXACTLY what I expected.

Then THIS track came along....

How I wish there was more like this on here!

Still distinctly Kamelot, but taken up a notch or two.

New Babylon!!!!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZ-g_cxZMKY

Yup, love that song as well. Not sure if it's the best, but it's great.

HOWEVER, it also exemplifies my biggest (only?) gripe with the disc, and that is that all the guest musicians are under-utilized. Here you have Melissa Bonny guesting, and she only gets a tiny growl section and an even shorter section for her cleans.
Same thing with the two songs with Lisa Guo ... brilliant violin player, but so underused here.

It seems to me that the idea of guest musicians for Kamelot is just a check-box, and not actually to bring something unique to the table.

[introclaus]

I checked out every single clip that Claus posted up above ....... and afterwards, I'm still in Camp A. I'm not going to sit here and type " same old shit " and call it a day..... I realize that it is quality material. How can it not be with music like that and Tommy once again singing his ass off (Willow was awesome). Tommy does once again channel Sir Khan to the max, and that should be a good thing for most. The music is also quality Kamelot music = as always.

The bottom line is that I just don't get excited about this type of music anymore ........ with well over 2500 CDs, I don't find myself hitting up the Prog Metal section much anymore, instead heading over to the next cabinet and grabbing me some Neal Morse, IQ, Transatlantic and that style ........ CLaus brought up the fact that bands like DReam Theater, Vanden Plas, are also just re-creating what we are used to, and I am starting to feel the same about those bands as well. It is somewhat pushing it to think that any band can create the same excitement that they did for us 25-30 years ago ..... aside from the serious fan of certain bands, it's just not feasible to expect the same feeling they gave us so long ago, and continue to do so .....

This particular formula of Kamelot works incredibly well ..... but with 17 Kamelot discs in my cabinet, I do prefer to grab onto a Khan driven disc truth be told. Those are the days when my excitement peaked for this band ..... time and age have driven me from this style, but I hardly reach for anything Tommy driven from them, and I'd first grab onto a Kingcrow disc before that. Tastes change - and I'm having a great time getting into bands like Transatlantic, when in the past I thought that they weren't heavy enough, and now I'm finding that the heaviness is just the weight I want it to be at ......

So there you have it ..... right now, Ice Age is kicking my ass and that is the particular style I'm into right now.

Firstly, I love how you started out by writing that you belonged in Camp B, but then changed it to Camp A. Old age strikes again

Yeah I hear you and I understand where you're coming from - I just don't agree, which is fine I guess. We don't need to agree on everything, and obviously we're in different camps (I think? LOL) regarding Kamelot.

Oh, and yes, that Ice Age disc is mighty sweet.

[LarryD]

Firstly, I love how you started out by writing that you belonged in Camp B, but then changed it to Camp A. Old age strikes again

***Yeah, I can't follow the camps as well as I used to ..........

Yeah I hear you and I understand where you're coming from - I just don't agree, which is fine I guess. We don't need to agree on everything, and obviously we're in different camps (I think? LOL) regarding Kamelot.

*****Yeah we are in different camps on this one ...... If I'm reaching for some Kamelot, it's going to be Black Halo, Karma, Epica, etc ....... and that's IF I'm reaching for some Kamelot ....... To be honest, I'd much rather watch the Cold Winter's NIght DVD more than anything ........however, that said, I can watch I am the Empire show and love it as well ....... they are both awesome.

Oh, and yes, that Ice Age disc is mighty sweet.

***Probably the best "prog" I've heard all year so far........

[introclaus]

Oh, and yes, that Ice Age disc is mighty sweet.

***Probably the best "prog" I've heard all year so far........

Yes, for me too ... best "old school prog metal" disc this year.

[prog_powermetal99]

*****Yeah we are in different camps on this one ...... If I'm reaching for some Kamelot, it's going to be Black Halo, Karma, Epica, etc ....... and that's IF I'm reaching for some Kamelot .......

I totally understand this comment, because that's how I am with Dream Theater. If I'm reaching for any Dream Theater, it's "Images and Words and "Awake". Probably the only DT discs I ever play anymore..........

[introclaus]

I totally understand this comment, because that's how I am with Dream Theater. If I'm reaching for any Dream Theater, it's "Images and Words and "Awake". Probably the only DT discs I ever play anymore..........

For me, Dream Theater is:
When Dream & Day Unite
Images & Words
Metropolis 2: Scenes From a Memory

Kamelot:
Poetry for the Poisoned
Eternity
Haven

[prog_powermetal99]

For me, Dream Theater is:
When Dream & Day Unite

Good Call! I forgot about this gem.... One of my favorite songs ever by Dream Theater is "matter of time".... I know, not a popular one, but still one of my favorites.

[nvandyk]

One of my favorite songs ever by Dream Theater is "matter of time".... I know, not a popular one, but still one of my favorites.

One of mine, too. Said everything I wanted to say about the art and craft of creating great music back then!

[Random Axe]

For the last week I loaded every Khanelot and Tomelot album into my car and just shuffle. What I found was surprising...

I no longer hear all the similarity I used to.

There are some, at least to my ears and brain, very different techniques and strengths. Roy can inject emotion, anger and intensity into his melodies. Tommy makes sure all his notes are pretty and perfectly clear.

Roy can jump almost two octaves between notes and maintain his power and projection. Tommy flips intoba falsetto on the same kind of notes and vocal lines. They have a similar vibrato and how they write the melody and chorus.

I think we've compared and scrutinized, critiqued and contrasted two of the best singers we've ever heard in the genre. We lump them together because there's nobody else like them.

Both are top five all-time vocalists for me. I just no longer am of the opinion Tommy is aping Roy. I listened long enough to hear and feel the differences.

[Random Axe]

After spending more time with this I've concluded this is some of the worst production Sascha Paeth has ever released. In most songs the guitar and keys are at the same level making it difficult to separate. Just a sound wall.

And Tommy's vocals are way back in the mix. How do you not put him at the center? We should be able to hear and understand every single word.

As mentioned above, I've been playing a lot of Kamelot the past month. This is the only album in their catalog I have to adjust the volume to hear the lyrics.

Did the band actually sign off on this? Did the correct mix get sent for manufacture? Are his vocals fading with age and this is a way to hide it?

All that said, this will still be a top five for me no question.

[Sir Exar Kun]

After spending more time with this I've concluded this is some of the worst production Sascha Paeth has ever released. In most songs the guitar and keys are at the same level making it difficult to separate. Just a sound wall.

And Tommy's vocals are way back in the mix. How do you not put him at the center? We should be able to hear and understand every single word.

As mentioned above, I've been playing a lot of Kamelot the past month. This is the only album in their catalog I have to adjust the volume to hear the lyrics.

Did the band actually sign off on this? Did the correct mix get sent for manufacture? Are his vocals fading with age and this is a way to hide it?

All that said, this will still be a top five for me no question.

I read this and assumed it was Larry......

I've listened to it a couple of times (once on headphones riding a bike, once in the car) and didn't have any issues with it at all.....

[LarryD]

I didn't buy the disc and I know exactly what Scott is talking about ....... the key here is Sascha Paeth. That wall of sound he talks about is characteristic of a Paeth recording.....it is not an illusion, doesn't depend on what sound system you have (although if you listen to your music through your phone or use your laptop speakers you won't notice it) .... but for the most part, this is true of most metal recordings in some way or another, but in this case it happens to be the norm.

Its not the reason I don't buy the disc, but I knew ahead of time what it was going to sound like with Sascha at the helm ......it is his sound signature. As we get older, our tolerance levels for many things goes further down and down ..... music is no exception. At this point, I want my music to sound GOOD, not tolerable......even VERY GOOD. It is so much more rewarding when it sounds good ...... the problems that Scott describes as the vocals, or keyboards, or something else (missing bass for example) is just all too common in metal, and it gets tiring after awhile ...... so for that reason, I try to find out what a disc sounds like ahead of time if I can before buying.....yes that eliminates most metal, but I still have 3000 CDs to fall back on if I want to hear SX, Vanden Plas, Kamelot, etc etc ......

[introclaus]

After spending more time with this I've concluded this is some of the worst production Sascha Paeth has ever released. In most songs the guitar and keys are at the same level making it difficult to separate. Just a sound wall.

And Tommy's vocals are way back in the mix. How do you not put him at the center? We should be able to hear and understand every single word.

As mentioned above, I've been playing a lot of Kamelot the past month. This is the only album in their catalog I have to adjust the volume to hear the lyrics.

Did the band actually sign off on this? Did the correct mix get sent for manufacture? Are his vocals fading with age and this is a way to hide it?

All that said, this will still be a top five for me no question.

I read this and assumed it was Larry......

I've listened to it a couple of times (once on headphones riding a bike, once in the car) and didn't have any issues with it at all.....

OMG - I thought same thing(s);
(1) that it was Larry posting
(2) that there are no issues with the production

[prog_powermetal99]

I didn't buy the disc and I know exactly what Scott is talking about ....... the key here is Sascha Paeth. That wall of sound he talks about is characteristic of a Paeth recording.....it is not an illusion, doesn't depend on what sound system you have (although if you listen to your music through your phone or use your laptop speakers you won't notice it) .... but for the most part, this is true of most metal recordings in some way or another, but in this case it happens to be the norm.

Its not the reason I don't buy the disc, but I knew ahead of time what it was going to sound like with Sascha at the helm ......it is his sound signature. As we get older, our tolerance levels for many things goes further down and down ..... music is no exception. At this point, I want my music to sound GOOD, not tolerable......even VERY GOOD. It is so much more rewarding when it sounds good ...... the problems that Scott describes as the vocals, or keyboards, or something else (missing bass for example) is just all too common in metal, and it gets tiring after awhile ...... so for that reason, I try to find out what a disc sounds like ahead of time if I can before buying.....yes that eliminates most metal, but I still have 3000 CDs to fall back on if I want to hear SX, Vanden Plas, Kamelot, etc etc ......

So sorry to hear you are getting out of metal Larry .... For some reason I thought of all people you would be the one who took Metal to the grave. Even though you are getting out of metal, hopefully you can still enjoy a metal concert every now and then and I wish you the best on wherever music takes you in the future.....

[introclaus]

... it is not an illusion, doesn't depend on what sound system you have (although if you listen to your music through your phone or use your laptop speakers you won't notice it) ...

Not sure if that makes sense, basically you're saying "it doesn't depend on the system, but it actually does".

At this point, I want my music to sound GOOD, not tolerable......even VERY GOOD.

This, to me at least, comes across as a very elitist thing to say and you're diminishing how the rest of us listen to music. You're saying that when I like something and I think it sounds GOOD / VERY GOOD, then I'm wrong. You're telling me that I'm wrong in thinking that to my ears it sounds good.

[LarryD]

Claus --

Let's stop with the " I think this is what you're saying stuff and it sounds elitist " ...... nothing I say is meant to be or sound elitist. I don't care how you listen to your music, but the fact is that two things are going to determine what it sounds like:

1) How the music was recorded.
2) What equipment you are using to hear that music through.

That said -- we can all discuss if a disc sucks or not based on what we expected it to sound like ..... now by that I mean, did the new Vanden Plas live up to our expectations, or did they change direction, etc etc ....... this is matter of taste, preference, and we all chime in with our opinions.

When it comes to the sound of a disc, all you have to do is compare to something else that sounds extremely good to your ears and you will hear the difference. The argument can't be - well, Metallica has a bigger budget than Vanden Plas or Symphony X. Or, well you can't compare Eniac Requiem to Billy Joel because BJ has a $1M recording budget and ER uses ProTools. Sound is sound.

But what someone can say is - this sounds terrible because the bass is missing, or the vocals are way back in the mix, or the guitar sounds like shit. If someone ( and I take Random Axes example ), says it sounds like a wall of sound, then there is a specific reason for that, it's not an opinion, and the reason is how it was recorded, or what equipment you are using to hear this defect (or what someone would perceive it as).
If someone sends me a You Tube video, and I play it through my HP laptop speakers, sure I'm going to say it sounds like shit. If I then kick in my super duper ( and I don't have these ) Klipsch high powered computer speakers, then wow it sounds really good or really bad. If I then move that music to my car, or to my main system, it is once again going to sound different, based on THAT equipment as well.

I did not mean to turn this into a sound recording thread - but it is something that I personally use to measure at least a good portion of my enjoyment on. So how any individual listens to their music, that will determine what it sounds like at that particular moment. And again, each producer has their own particular sound in their recordings, and I don't have to tell you that ...... so that's what I meant in that previous thread........

And Dusty, no way I'm getting out of metal completely .... I'm just really, really picky now as to what I listen to ......the " blind purchase" band list has become really small, and yeah I'll still be buying Vanden Plas, SX, Dream Theater and more blindly ......no worries there ...... I've just got so many discs by so many bands that really sound the same ( in a particular style ) that I feel that I don't need more of it at this point.

[introclaus]

Claus --

Let's stop with the " I think this is what you're saying stuff and it sounds elitist " ...... nothing I say is meant to be or sound elitist. I don't care how you listen to your music, but the fact is that two things are going to determine what it sounds like:

1) How the music was recorded.
2) What equipment you are using to hear that music through.

The elitist comment was purely tongue-in-cheek. I know you don't MEAN to sound elitist. My comment was purely that it came across that way.

That said -- we can all discuss if a disc sucks or not based on what we expected it to sound like ..... now by that I mean, did the new Vanden Plas live up to our expectations, or did they change direction, etc etc ....... this is matter of taste, preference, and we all chime in with our opinions.

When it comes to the sound of a disc, all you have to do is compare to something else that sounds extremely good to your ears and you will hear the difference. The argument can't be - well, Metallica has a bigger budget than Vanden Plas or Symphony X. Or, well you can't compare Eniac Requiem to Billy Joel because BJ has a $1M recording budget and ER uses ProTools. Sound is sound.

But what someone can say is - this sounds terrible because the bass is missing, or the vocals are way back in the mix, or the guitar sounds like shit. If someone ( and I take Random Axes example ), says it sounds like a wall of sound, then there is a specific reason for that, it's not an opinion, and the reason is how it was recorded, or what equipment you are using to hear this defect (or what someone would perceive it as).
If someone sends me a You Tube video, and I play it through my HP laptop speakers, sure I'm going to say it sounds like shit. If I then kick in my super duper ( and I don't have these ) Klipsch high powered computer speakers, then wow it sounds really good or really bad. If I then move that music to my car, or to my main system, it is once again going to sound different, based on THAT equipment as well.

I did not mean to turn this into a sound recording thread - but it is something that I personally use to measure at least a good portion of my enjoyment on. So how any individual listens to their music, that will determine what it sounds like at that particular moment. And again, each producer has their own particular sound in their recordings, and I don't have to tell you that ...... so that's what I meant in that previous thread........

I disagree very much on all of this (except obviously that equipment plays in on whether something sounds good or not).

Sound is not sound!

If I like how something sounds and you think it sounds like shit - even if we play it on the same system - that does not make me wrong and you right (or the other way around). It just means that we hear sound DIFFERENTLY.

What things sounds like to me, is not necessarily how things sound like to me. My ears are different than you, and I might prefer something in my sound-picture that you hate. So when you are telling me as a blanket statement that everything Sascha produces sounds a certain way and that's bad, then you're making the assumption that those "sounds" he produces actually sound bad to my ears.

Let's be very clear here; you and I hear music differently, and I'm also becoming more and more certain that we hear PRODUCTIONS differently. Again, that doesn't mean you're wrong and I'm right - it just means what you want and what I want out of music isn't the same, and that's just fine.

[Random Axe]

The only equalizing thing I bring to this every Kamelot album sounds fantastic in my cars system except Awakening. It's still good but not up to the bar they normally set.

Tommy produces his own vocals in SW, and they're impeccable, bright and clear. Sascha needs to let someone else in the mix booth...

[LarryD]

The only equalizing thing I bring to this every Kamelot album sounds fantastic in my cars system except Awakening. It's still good but not up to the bar they normally set.

Tommy produces his own vocals in SW, and they're impeccable, bright and clear. Sascha needs to let someone else in the mix booth...

****This will be true of any producer with a signature sound that will appeal to some, and not to others. It will also be based on the gear that you use to listen to it on....some may make their sound better, while some may make their sound worse. This is what I've been trying to say in my posts above.....

A perfect example of what I'm talking about is a Jacob Hansen production ...... tons of reverb, sounds much too digital, and the overall sound is unnatural. To me at least.
Someone else may come along and say it sounds great. Again, it is all based on what gear you use .......or you may actually like that sound.

Not to keep this thing going here - but Claus said Sound is not sound. Sound IS sound. How you interpret sound or like / dislike it is up to the listener.......